That Popular Podcast
What makes everyone like him so easily? Why does she bug me so much? Why are they so weird? Why do I always do that? Why do I always let that person make me feel that way?
Aaron is a multi-award winning radio host and Mitch is a psych professor, previously the Chief Science Officer for the American Psychological Association. Together, they talk about the social stuff we all experience, why it happens, and what it tells us about ourselves. It's light, interesting, and fun. It's That Popular Podcast.
That Popular Podcast
That Number One Relationship Killer
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Ooh, it’s cringe! But you definitely know someone who does this. And they have no idea that they are self-sabotaging their own relationship!
It's That Popular Podcast. Mitch Princetine is a psychology professor at UNC Chapel Hill and the former Chief Science Officer at the American Psychological Association. Aaron Keck is a political scientist and award-winning radio host. Together, they discuss the popular and not so popular quirks of human behavior. Welcome into That Popular Podcast. Now, here's Mitch and Aaron.
SPEAKER_02So this is our first time recording in a little while, because I just got back from you just got back from Spain. I just got back from a week-long Panama Canal cruise. So wow, you've got living the high life for the last couple of years.
SPEAKER_01You've been back for a while, actually. So I never heard how it went.
SPEAKER_02Oh, it went great. Uh we had an amazing time. We were we sailed out of Miami. We got through the Panama Canal, which was like a super cool experience. It wasn't ever on my bucket list, but then you're doing it, and oh, it's a really, really cool experience, like just seeing the locks and that whole thing. And I got to knock off four countries that I'd never been to before.
SPEAKER_01So I would love to do that sometime. So okay, wait a minute. So I want to I want to ask you more about the cruise, but actually I I can't let this go for a second. It why like it is surprising that you didn't you didn't like check in after the cruise. I'm just like not to be weird, but like I thought I thought I was gonna hear from you before. Oh no, I'm sorry. I'm sorry now. So I I was kind of like, are like, are you okay? Or what's going on?
SPEAKER_02I was tired. We got back in the case. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The cruise is supposed to be relaxing, but you're also going to four different countries and you're talking with a whole bunch of people and you're meeting people and everything. So by the time you get back, and this is a typical vacation, especially when it's a week long, you get back and you want a vacation for the vacation.
SPEAKER_01So I mean, like we're good, right? Like everything's okay.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. No, we're fine. Everything's fine.
SPEAKER_01No, no, no. I yeah, no, I know. I just like it was just it's so weird because um like usually just the cadence of of how often we're texting is a little bit more frequent. So there's just like a moment where I was like, wait, what's is everything cool? I guess I'm not sure. How did things like end the last time we saw each other?
SPEAKER_02So I don't even remember. No, no, no. Are you sure?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, everything's cool. So um so the canal. Like yeah, tell me, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I mean, it was it was good. We we ate, we drank, we saw locks. Yeah. Are you okay?
SPEAKER_01No, no, like no, I mean I'm I'm fine. Like I was just I don't know, like sometimes like sometimes I think like, you know, when we're like texting and stuff, like I'm more the person that starts the text thread to like say, hey, what's going on? Like, and I was just thinking, like, you're like, what if I'd never sent the text? Like, how long would it be until you sent a text to check in? I don't know. This is weird. I'm just saying, like, it just made me feel a little bit funny. Like, are you like am I am I the one texting more often than you are?
SPEAKER_02I don't, I don't, I don't know. I'm not good at texting, so I don't yeah. I can I can text more if you want me to.
SPEAKER_01No, no, no. Like we're we're cool, right? Everything's fine. Like you're not you're not pissed off or anything.
SPEAKER_02No.
SPEAKER_01Okay, okay. No, no, no. I don't I yeah.
SPEAKER_02I'm sorry if it came off that way.
SPEAKER_01No, no, no. It's fine. It's all good. It's all good. So yeah. I like I I I kind of get the feeling that you're saying that you're good because like you're a nice person and you're just trying to say the right thing, but I I just really feel like something is off, and now I'm I'm like, is it really good or are you just saying that it's good, that everything's okay?
SPEAKER_02I mean, I was I was good and now I feel less good. I don't know.
SPEAKER_01No, no, no. I mean, look, everything's fine on my end. I just, you know, I just don't know why you you never text me. So, you know.
SPEAKER_02I can I can I I can text you right now. I'm gonna text you right now. No, no, no, it's fine. So this is my obligatory.
SPEAKER_01No, no, no, no. Okay, now I feel really weird, but okay. I feel like you're doing a thing. Okay, I'm totally doing it. So there's this thing in the Milgram got in trouble, by the way. That's right. That's right. All right, I'm totally doing a thing. There's this um there's this thing in psychology, and it's referred to as excessive reassurance seeking. And it's this thing that happens in a lot of relationships, especially if one of the people in the relationship is feeling like a little bit insecure, a little bit down, like maybe they're stressed about something in life. And they ask for reassurance. You know, is everything cool or what's going on, or hey, I've been stewing on something a little bit, and I'm kind of and it's the most weird thing because when they start asking for reassurance, it's it very often is the case that everything is fine.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01But then they doubt the reassurance that they get.
SPEAKER_02Did you get the feeling that kind of because if you're already in that state of I need reassurance when everything is fine, then hearing that everything is fine is not going to assuage your death.
SPEAKER_01It's not good enough, right? It's somehow like I hear you saying everything's fine, but I'm telling you, something is stuck in my head and I can't get through it. So I'm gonna ask you again and again. And like, so honestly, being on the receiving end of that, did you enjoy it?
SPEAKER_02Absolutely not. Absolutely not. And now, like, I'm in my head because I'm actually not great about texting people. And I have several relationships with folks who are really good friends of mine, but they're the ones who always text me first, and I never feel great about that. And now I'm like, oh, I owe Sylvia a text right now.
SPEAKER_01All right. Well, we will definitely ask if everything's okay. We will send many texts to Sylvia after this. But like, no, but that's the thing, is that the person so the research says that the person who's asking for reassurance is kind of oblivious to the fact that this feels lousy to the person from whom reassurance is being sought. And then, and this is like so tragic, but ironically, it is the act of asking for reassurance itself that ends up making things bad. So they go in thinking something's bad. It wasn't. Everything was cool. But the process of asking for it ironically self-sabotages the whole relationship.
SPEAKER_02Right, right. Which actually makes perfect sense because if you're if the relationship becomes like all of this like doubt and self-questioning, then it does tend to drag down the conversation a little bit, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And then the person starts being like, Well, I wasn't avoiding you before, but now that our interactions is all about this reassurance seeking and needy, and you know, like you doubting me, frankly, I'm kind of gonna start avoiding you now. And then what happens, and this is like so um horrible, but in the research, the person then who does the reassurance seeking is like, I knew it. See, I was right the whole time.
SPEAKER_02So it's a feedback loop, right?
SPEAKER_01And it's like, no, it you weren't right the whole time. You actually created the situation that made it bad. It was never bad in the first place.
SPEAKER_02There is such a fine tightrope that we constantly have to walk in order to have relationships that work, right? Because if you are constantly reassurance seeking to the point of like falling off the deep end on the one side, then you're gonna sabotage relationships that way. At the same time, in any relationship, we should be checking in with each other to make sure that everything's okay and to like be accommodating to the other person's interests and needs and desires and who they are as a person, right, and be respectful of that. And you can't go too far into the other direction of just being neglectful or ignorant of that. So you've got to like walk that tight rope. And it's fascinating that we do.
SPEAKER_01A hundred percent. A hundred percent, because it's so relationships are so ambiguous, it's not like a business relationship, like I'm under contract for a year in this job, and like these are the conditions under which the contract would end. We don't have that in our relationships that are personal. So you're constantly like, it what's happening? And but I think the key is the the leap of faith and the trust of well, you say things are fine. I checked in with you. Even if that doesn't feel right for me right now, I'm gonna have to just buy that. Yeah, you know, and try that out.
SPEAKER_02I am thinking about, and this is not excessive reassurance seeking, but it's a relationship that kind of went awry in my within my family, between two family members. And I was talking with, not involving me, but between the two of them. Yeah. And I was talking with one of them once, and they said, you know, the real problem, and they of course they were talking about the other person, but there's a problem on both sides. You know, the real problem is there's no grace in the relationship. Like at no point are at no point is this other person giving me the benefit of the doubt, is what they were saying. The reality is at no point are either of them giving each other the benefit of the doubt. And just that willingness to accept that things are probably okay is so important. I think.
SPEAKER_01I think that's totally related because like in this pretend situation, like let's say I really was kind of like upset about texting or whatever, which I'm totally not and whatever, but you know, we were pretending, like, are you because it feels like you are. And I mean, I No, I promise we're good. No, so um, but that's the thing. Like you would say, I'm just not a texter, and then I would have to I would sit with two ki two independent things. One, I feel legitimately bad that you didn't text, and that's a real feeling that I'm having. Yes. And I have to give you the grace and believe that you're not a good texter. It's not about me, it's about you. And these two things don't fit together. It's like, wait, my real feelings make it feel like it's about me. But what you're saying is that it's about you. So I have a choice. I'm gonna either lean in to how bad this feels for me, which is probably gonna be then asking you again and again and again to assuage my concerns, or I'm just gonna have to take the leap of faith and say, All right, I guess it's about you. I'm gonna let it go.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01And let's see what the next couple weeks look like. And then if I have more signals and signs that there's something going on, then all right. But maybe in fact it is not my thing, and I can just let it go. And that's the thing. We we have to do like a thousand of those at a time in a relationship where we're just taking that leap of faith, putting aside like something feels funny, but I'm willing to listen. And look, let's face it, some relationships suck. And at some point you're like, yeah, the evidence evidence is incontrovertible at this point. Like this is not going well.
SPEAKER_02And the evidence can be incontrovertible in multiple ways. Like it can be me not texting you because I don't like you, right? And that's bad. Or it can be me not texting you because I'm just not the sort of person that texts. But if you're the sort of person who like needs that back and forth, like needs the relationship to be a two-way street, and you start feeling bad about the fact that the relationship is always a one-way street, even if I'm not doing that to be malicious or negative towards you specifically, I'm still not meeting your needs in the relationship.
SPEAKER_01It just may not be a fit. It just may be like, so so have you ever had a relationship where somebody is a bit the more needy of the two, and you feel a little bit like, oh, okay. I feel like I'm constantly having these.
SPEAKER_02I am right now in my head trying to think of a relationship that was not like that. Oh my god. Because there's always that slight imbalance, right? Like there's always there's always people who and it's it might be different people at different times, like I need more from you now, you need more from you later. But yeah, I can think of lots of relationships like that. I mean, I am I don't know what that says about me.
SPEAKER_01I can think of some relationships, whether like friendships, romantic, whatever, you know, where there's a perpetual imbalance, but then also some where it's a really nice, like we're gonna take turns. Yes. Like I'm in a situation right now, this is this hang is gonna be about me today. But like next week, let's hang out again and let's make it all about you. Like but sometimes also the relationship could work if it's like, you know, here's someone that loves to dispense advice and support, and here's someone who de constantly needs advice and support, and that works for them. That's okay.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_01I think it's um it is a delicate tightrope.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And you have to constantly be checking in with yourself as well as as well as the other person.
SPEAKER_01100% with yourself.
SPEAKER_02I've got that, I've got a couple of those relationships now where like I feel like I'm giving more than I'm receiving and I'm okay with that. But if it if it ever comes to and I always feel bad, I always feel a lot better about being in those relationships versus being someone who receives more than they give because I'm also in a couple of those, and I always feel a little bit like I'm not holding up my end of the deal.
SPEAKER_01I know what you mean. I feel like I'm a different person in different relationships, and I'm like, wow, I'm the needy one in this relationship versus I am the constant, like calm, everything is balanced, I have wonderful sage wisdom to offer. Like you know, and I'm like, how am I the same person? But the relationship like somehow brings out the different sides of me. But I think that I think, yeah. And but I do think in the situations where I'm the needy one, I I'm always looking for opportunities to go above and beyond. Like, and think like, oh, here's a time when you're in need, I'm gonna really try and over-reciprocate because like I know that this is where a relationship can sometimes be unbalanced, you know.
SPEAKER_02So in insofar as that's the case, and that's often the case with like lots of relationships, and we're different at different times with different people. How how do you overcome that and maintain like a long-term positive relationship? Is it more than just giving each other grace? It's gotta be, there's gotta be something more to it than that.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I think that you know, we're we're not trained at any point in our lives to talk about our feelings. And some of us come from backgrounds where we are very much taught to not talk about our feelings. I come from a Jewish family. If you don't talk about your feelings 24 hours a day, something's wrong with you. So I'm very comfortable with that. But but there are a lot of people who are not. So I think that it's almost like having to work out the muscle of being like, hey, I'm having feelings right now. Like, wait a minute, something like just I'm I'm waving a little flag here. Like, um, I'm having a feeling, I don't even know what it is yet. But like just to kind of get in the habit of wait, something is feeling irritating. Like, I I don't know where this is coming from. And I'm at you're kind of pissing me off right now a little bit. Like, or you know, or when you do that, uh psychologists always talk about, you know, ABC. When you do A in situation B, it makes me feel C. So you never want to say like, you suck in general, like and you're horrible. But like, you know, when you keep asking me whether we're good, even though I've told you three times today and texted you about how good we are, it it kind of starts pissing me off. Like you're actually making me now feel like you don't trust me. And you're creating a dynamic that I don't even know if you realize you're creating. Like, but that's the thing, like that's the way I would say it. And that's way too psychology. Like, I think we got to figure out for ourselves like what's the way of being like, hey, I I need a break. Or hey, that's pissing me off for a second. Like, let me just give me five seconds. Like, but I just think the world would be a better place if we were all good at being like, hey, I'm having a a feeling.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Okay. That said, people in, and this is me as an outsider talking to you as an insider, people who are in the field of psychology are trained in that. And they're trained in not just being willing and able to express emotions and feelings, but in how to do it in the most effective and and proper way. Yeah. Are psychologists better at maintaining friendships and relationships than other people?
SPEAKER_01That's a good question. I actually don't know if there's research on that, but I know that psychologists have, you know, as a rule, we tend to have a lot of conversations processing the relationship in the relationships that we're in. Because it's like an auto mechanic. If you hear a clinking sound in a car driving by you, you're like immediately able to say, Oh, I think their radiator has a problem. Actually, I have no idea if that would make a clinking sound. I'm just like, you know, like I can diagnose what's going on with it. It's the same thing.
SPEAKER_02Like a band muffler, for instance. Like that's pretty good.
SPEAKER_01We can see things in relationships and be like, oh, I would have checked in on that, or I would have said that differently. Like friends all the time will tell me, like, oh, I was having this fight with someone, blah, blah, blah. And I said this, and I'm like, ooh, did you say it that way? I'm like, like, I get where you are coming from, but maybe that wasn't quite the way to say it. I bet they responded that way. They did. Oh my God. Like, so it's the same thing. You just diagnose and hear the little sounds and signals of like, uh oh.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I also know from the the friends that I have who have gone into psychology. So many people go and like it's not just them as individuals, but they'll tell me about just like the field in general. People go into psychology when they like oftentimes when they are kind of in their own heads about their own personal psychology.
SPEAKER_01So we call that knee search when you do research on yourself, essentially, and your own in your own stuff. So a lot of people will, if you talk with them long enough, you figure out that the thing that they study, they had some sort of a connection to, you know. Um, but I think that's a great thing. I think that, you know, we need both the scientific and the lived experience to figure out how these things happen. And and as someone that studies relationships, yeah, I've had them all, you know, really good, really bad, like everything. And it's fascinating to me. It because it all comes down to like these little interactions, like the five minutes of us talking at the beginning of this, where it seems innocent and fine enough, like, hey, just you I felt bad that I didn't hear from you after your trip. Let's pretend. Right. And somehow in asking you whether everything is okay, I screwed the whole thing up. And probably you would never text again after that interaction.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I would text you 140 seconds. Oh my god, but it would just, but with I would overcompensate so hard.
SPEAKER_01But like probably with like annoyance and resentment. Because it yeah. And then it's like a festering thing. And but we do that stuff all the time. We self-sabotage, and that's one of the ways, excessive reassurance.
SPEAKER_02So what is, and we got to start wrapping up, what is an example of pulling yourself out of self-sabotage? Like you're in a negative relationship. How, like, what's a way to get out of it? What's an example?
SPEAKER_01I mean, a lot of times what's going on is that you've got your own mood state, and it's kind of casting a shadow over the way that you're thinking about the past, the way you're thinking about the future. There's remarkable ways in which, like, if you're feeling down, it's like a filter. You can't even think about positive instances in which, let's say, you have texted, just to go with that example, like you have texted wonderful, you know, greetings and hello and catch up. But I can't even think of it because I'm just like in a down mood and I'm feeling down on myself. So I do think that there's an element of like, wait, don't act based on how you're feeling right now. Like ch try to wait a little bit and then think about it again when you're in a different state of mind. And I bet that in at least 50% of the time, you'd be like, no, it's not the way that I was thinking. It was, I was just in that, you know, I can only see it the bad way, one of those moments.
SPEAKER_02Hey, Mitch. Good to have seen you today. Attached our 400 photos of me in canal. See you soon.
SPEAKER_01Now I have so much 400 photos. He's so needy. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_00This has been That Popular Podcast. Find all our episodes on That Popular Podcast.com or wherever you get your podcasts.
